Theory/composition advice.

[J1111]

Ive been learning the flamenco guitar for around two years now and have a fairly good grasp of technique learnt from reading tablature.

Im now however trying to figure out how to play with the flamenco rhythms ( I understand how they're structured just not what the guitar is meant to do with them... also when I try to tap the beat along with songs it seems parts that should be accented are left silent sometimes)

Im also curious to know how the original way of learning Flamenco guitar evolved into the highly technical works we have today with guitarists using various chord variations and inversions. Nor do I understand how all these players play this complicated music if they are meant to have learnt by ear. Sabicas was completely self taught so how did he know that his 'zapateado en Re' was infact in the key of D? Surely he wouldnt have had any concept of 'key' as he was just playing what he heard. It is making me wonder how these artists approach composing their songs... are they just manipulating the guitar to produce the sounds they hear in their head? or are they thinking for example "im composing a solea... so these chords in this order and key are available to me" and then just creating different falsetas within those chords?

As you can tell Im highly confused about all this, I suppose my main questions boil down to:

1) How to play the flamenco guitar (not technique wise)
2) How do artists who play by ear approach playing the guitar.

I apologise if my questions are too vague or confusing but any help would be greatly appreciated as I long to compose my own Flamenco songs/accompany el cante, and not to mention play in compas!

[Black Sheep]

I'm waiting for the answer to this one too.

I wonder who's going to tackle it...

I, like you, am learning to play, but not yet think, like a Flamenco. It's a bit like learning to speak Spanish by reading road signs; we know words but how do you construct sentences?

[Payul]

Maybe I can Enlighten this a bit.

First of all, in flamenco ( I guess in other music too) the silence ís the accent.
You hear it a lot in f.i. tangos. * 2 3 4 * 2 3 4 ( * is silence)

"or are they thinking for example "im composing a solea... so these chords in this order and key are available to me" and then just creating different falsetas within those chords?"

You are right about this, if you know the chord progression and have a for instance tremolo falseta, it it is not too difficult to take the same tremolo but instead of tremolo you make an appregio falseta with the same thing.
Or picado or whatever...

Also if you know how the sound of the chort is that you need, you can find it up the neck too, make it more beautiful to add or leave out a note, or make one higher or lower. Play it open or with a barré ( in musical writing you add a 7th, or a 9th or a mineur note or majeur. etc but it is not necessary to know how it is called.)

Hope this was a bit useful for you....

Payul

[J1111]

Thank you that does help some of the questions I have, but there still remain a few issues Id like to try an resolve.

What I meant to say by the parts of a compas being left silent was that trying to play the compas with certain songs doesnt work (For example I know how to play Paco de Lucia's Barrio la vina through tablature but when I try to tap the compas the accented parts dont match up at all- could you shed any light on what is happening here? I am aware that Flamenco artists can change the compas somewhat to suit expression but for many songs it seems completely changed)

Another question I tried to structure in my last post was something along the lines of how to approach the compas in terms of guitar playing, any ideas as to what guitarists are taught/think when learning/playing? Is the guitarist meant to play each chord for a pre-determined set of beats with the compas for example?

For example in solea play E for 1 2 3 then F for 4 5 6 etc? or could you focus on one chord for a full 12 beats of the rhythm cycle?

Also,with regards to chords, would you argue that is what flamencos are doing? They learn the structure of the different palos and then when they practise the guitar they are just getting used to the neck and the location of the notes? I cant think what someone like Paco de lucia (who apparently claims his technique is not systematically applied) would practise for ten hours a day if its all done by ear. Any ideas as to how artists such as Paco, vicente amigo or Tomatito used to practise when they were learning from the begginning?

Id like to know how they learnt because it inrigues me when I read things such as "Paco de lucia weaves effortlessly between the major and minor key in this song" and then think that he probably isnt aware of what Major or minor is... so what is he thinking about that creates this effect that we call major and minor?... probably just playing what he hears in his head right?

Im aware that many of these questions would probably become apparent if I had a teacher but that option is sadly unavailable to me at this time so any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Payul]

Sorry, I misunderstood you, English is not my mother language.

Barrio la vina is an Alegrias, Alegrias is often counted like this:12 3 6 8 10, but sometimes falseta's counted in 3 ( tremolo), 12 3 6 9 12 or even in 6, 12 6 12. or:
12 3 7 8 10, a lot of possibilities.
Also PDL is playing a lot with the rithm of the compas, he speeds up very much in the picadorun

You can stay in one short for 12 beats if you want.

What I know from the masters, and all flamenco's still do is to sit in front of your teacher and just play what he or she is doing, no paper, maybe a recorder.
so this way you lear your falseta's, later you put them in a piece or change them a bit, or totally as you like.
The old recordings from PDL are mostly Montoya and Ricardo falseta's.

To clarify, if you change the key from an Alegria falseta, you are able to put it into a Buleria. If you take that falseta, and change the accents you can put it into a seguiriyas. ( it is a bit strainge, but technically possible)

I am prety sure Paco de Lucia knows he is playing mayor or minor, he cannot read musical notation, but you do not need it if you are used to learn it on another way.

Payul

[J1111]

Ah I see I did not realise you could count Alegrias in such a variety of ways, is that possible with the other compases also?

oh I see, so these guitarists learn (more or less) by copying whoever is teaching (to learn structure) and then adapting that style later on to create their own music. Thank you, this is helping me get a grasp on a decent way to approach composing and playing.

Its interesting what you say about how changing certain aspects of a falseta you can change what palo you are in. I thought I knew the definition of a Falseta but now im not so sure, in a book i own its defined as " part of flamenco music where the guitarist interprets a composition with a purely musical feeling" Would you say thats a good definition? Surely anything a guitarist plays is a falseta then in that case? Especially in solo flamenco guitar- surely all of that is just several falsetas joined together musically?

and by "You can stay in one short for 12 beats if you want." do you mean that you can just play one chord for the duration of the 12 beats like I asked?

Another problem I have is understanding when to start counting the beats, I have read that the first beat is always left silent in the solea and that it is really starting on the last beat- but how can the first beat (or 12th beat in reality) be silent and accented at the same time?

As you can tell I have many, many questions about all this- it just seems like once I get these minor things I dont quite understand sorted out ill be able to really immerse myself in Flamenco and flamenco guitar. So I am very grateful for any help.

[Payul]

Yes it is possible with other compases too.
Solo flamenco guitar comes from flamenco singing and dancing.
A piece is buil up with falseta's and rasgueados, falseta's are the melody part
rasgueados are the rithmic part, it was there to show the dancer the rithm again after a falseta. some rithmic parts sound like falseta's,but if you hear good, you hear a different

listen to this,
YouTube - Paco Peña - Soleares

till 0.25 it is a falseta, after that a rithmic part with rasgueados

at 43 there is a new falseta again etc.

You hear the rithmic part at 031 sec? that is 12 beats in one chord.

Solea starts at one as far as I know, not on 12 with a silent beat.

Maybe this wil help you understand better.


picture a clock, look at one if you can ( or your wristwach)

3 6 8 10 12 solea
12 3 6 8 10 buleria
8 10 12 3 6 seguiriyas

see what happens here? everytihing fits in everything.
When you take the numbers out of the clock, you don't even have to count after a while!

in other words:

Solea is: 2x3 and 3x2
Buleria is: 2x3 and 3x2 ( only the accents are on different places)
Seguiriyas is: 3x2 and 2x3

Hope this will help a bit to understand

Here also a link to a flamenco metronome, so you can see a bit of what I have tried to explain
YouTube - Flamenco Metronome 'Compas'

Good Luck!

[Black Sheep]

Thank you for taking the time to write this.

[falseta]

@Payul and @J1111 - Awesome posts! +Rep points for both of you!

[J1111]

ah right I understand more now, thank you for your explanations!

I was confused about the solea because I have seen the compas written as one 6/8 measure and one 3/4 measure... which it cant be if the first beat isnt accented right? Unless you start on the second beat of that way of counting?

A question about silent parts of a compas however:

the tangos rhythm is *234 right? and you mentioned before that the silent beat is really the accent? Perhaps with a golpe on the guitar?

Other than that I think all this information is starting to come together, thank you very much for your help!