Buleria not counting....

[Payul]

Hi all,

We have all our little and bigger fights in flamenco, for me it was Buleria counting.
In Sevilla, I had some lessons from Julio Carrillo, and one evening after playing, I asked him how to count Buleria exactly.
Well, he never did count, he took my hands and helped me clap, calling all the time: " eso es! eso es!" yes, I know but how you count??
he took my hands again and did the same thing, calling again "eso es, nada mas! muy symple!"
Wel when I was home again, I still did not figure it out.....

Desperated I searched for a way to learn to know and feel bulerias, I try the next thing, I started to tick on the table with the left hand the 2's, so 12, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10,12

At the same time the three's with the right hand
12, 3, 6, 9, 12.

try this a while.....
Difficult right???

It is very difficult to do it counting.
I tried to do this: 12 with both hands, 2 left, 3 right, 4 left, 6 both hands, 8 left, 9 right, 10 left, 12 both....
Try this a while.......

Now listen to the recording, hear the pattern? this is lot easyer right?
If you learn this, you feel the Buleria without counting...

Eso es! Eso es! Eso es!.......Muy symple......:-)



This was a real eye opener for me
Hope it will help one of you too a bit...
See the attachment below.

[deteresa]

Payul! Eso no es. That is way too fast, like double time even for a Buleria. First thing to do, get some kind of metronome. Start out SLOW, like 144 bpm (beats per minute).
Each beat gets a number and just count with the metronome 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 etc, even beats. Then, stop saying all the numbers except for 12, 3, 6, 8, and 10. 12 . . 3 . . 6 . 8 . 10 . 12 . . 3 etc.
Or you can do 12, 3, 7, 8, and 10.
Now as soon as you have this mastered, start increasing the speed. A typical full speed Buleria will be around 230-250 bpm.

You are onto it, but you want to break bad habits before they get too ingrained.
Hope this helps and good luck, Bulerias is about the trickiest rhythm out there.

[Payul]

Here is a recording with 144bpm.
The other record was indeed a bit too fast,,
I try to expain how to "feel" the bulerias instead of counting.

maybe this explains the best I try to say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPGdP...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MapBY...eature=related

I am pretty sure they "feel" the rithm, without counting.

[deteresa]

Yeah they feel it alright...ole los flamencos jovenes!
For me the best way to get to the point of just feeling it was to start slow by counting, that and just listen to a ton of Flamenco until it's internalized.
Every player seems to have a different method though so, hey, whatever works as long as you can stay in compas. I had a teacher that really emphasized the importance of tapping your foot. I still can't do it! For me it is easier just to feel it in my head.

[federico]

You all are killing me with your counting and metronomes. Work with a metronome and you will never play Flamenco well. THe Spanish teacher was correct. You need to know the palmas first then the rest falls into place. In fact. To dance Bulerias in perfect timing, one does not need the guitar only the compas of the palmas. Start using metronomes and you will all sound Japanese.
Would anyone like to argue with this old cougar :-)
I don't want to sound arrogant, but I know what I am talking about.

[Black Sheep]

Adam del Monte calls it active listening. Select every buleria you have on your iPod and sit somewhere that no one of any consequence will see you and clap and count (12), 1, 2, (3), 4, 5, (6), 7, (8), 9, (10), 11, and so on....

But I can see everyone is right here. No one thing is the 'golden' way... it is what ever is going to get you there...

I do use a compas metronome. It is showing me where I'm drifting off beat as this does not come easily to me. I am left handed and play right handed. While I am just as dexterous, my rhythm is in the wrong hand.

I like Payul's pattern. It is a challenge and will give me something to do at the traffic lights...

[Frontera]

Originally Posted by federico

You all are killing me with your counting and metronomes. Work with a metronome and you will never play Flamenco well. THe Spanish teacher was correct. You need to know the palmas first then the rest falls into place. In fact. To dance Bulerias in perfect timing, one does not need the guitar only the compas of the palmas. Start using metronomes and you will all sound Japanese.
Would anyone like to argue with this old cougar :-)
I don't want to sound arrogant, but I know what I am talking about.

I agree Federico; however your statement will make you rather unpopular. In my opinion playing with a metronome makes one sound classical and void of the flamenco feeling. Using a metrome in practice to check a falseta is one thing, but if a guitar player has to have a metronome going to play on compas, then they will develop a dependency and play mechanically on time, but VOID of real compas. Another personal pet peeve is a player starting a Bulerias with "scratching" or muting the strings with left hand and doing rhythm with the right. I turn off the recording right there. If you know how to play Bulerias, then play it or hand the guitar to someone that can.

However we must realize times have changed and learning flamenco as one would classical is the normal. Flamenco has been turned into a staged and choreographed fine art. DVD's and online learning are available and as good as they are still don't replace an old gypsy teacher with a beat up old guitar demonstrating a falseta after you have demonstrated palmas to the palo. The first lesson in flamenco I had was just doing palmas. No guitar ever came out of the case.

[federico]

You are right about unpopular statements. However I also agree with you in that the best way is without ever taking the guitar out of the case and learning Bulerias with palmas.

I'm afraid that I have some strong opinions on Flamenco. In the past that has gotten me in trouble with the Americanos
Sorry

[falseta]

@federico - Thank you for your insight and for recognizing your posts may give people a wrong impression of you and worse get them angry. We have people here from all over the world and sometimes what we mean doesn't always come out the right way when we write here on the forum. I look forward to your contributions and enjoy your immense passion for Flamenco.

@deteresa - I have removed your post as it was inappropriate. Keep an open mind as in life there is never just one way to do things. Its when we are open to new ideas that we learn. Please keep this in mind when posting.

Everyone thanks for all the great information in this thread and lets keep it clean. Its interesting to read how everyone has a different method of learning. This shouldn't be seen as weakness or the wrong way of doing things but simply an alternate way one may learn a difficult palo such as a Bulerias.

Keep exchanging ideas and keep it clean!

[deteresa]

Falseta, thank your for deleting my post, you were right it was inappropriate.
I would like to reiterate the basic gist of my post using more "I" statements (tranquilo, tranquilo).

As a teacher I have come to realize that everyone learns differently and that you can't criticize someone for using a metronome or counting. In fact all serious guitarists that I met in Spain use either a metronome or "Solo Compas" CD to practice Bulerias falsetas in compas at home.
Even students in Spain, who have not grown up around Flamenco (and there are many), but want to learn Flamenco must start by counting or visualizing the compas of Bulerias.

For those of you who are interested, Jason McGuire gives an excellent explanation of Bulerias:

YouTube - Bulerias Compas Lesson Commentary