Flamenco Jazz

[Payul]

I totally agree with you, I know a very young guy who was attracted to flamenco through "flametal " heavy metal music on a flamecoish manner ( or visa versa ) the guy is studying now Diego del Gastor.....and love the old cante

Isn't that something teriffic?

Payul

[ex_caeruleus]

Originally Posted by gato

I would venture to say that it makes sense for the puro people and traditionalists of every kind to be polite, and positive when discussing the flamenco so that people who are new to the whole idea of flamenco culture and music, art and dance, and poetry don't get turned off by the attitudes that are displayed...

Gary

Yeah, most ambassadors are polite. If you want to spread the gospel of flamenco puro, then you need to preach love note hate.

[michaelbrown]

I feel it's a great relief to see that so many aficionados are at least thinking about the traditional vs. fusion/contemporary/pop flamenco issue and discussing it. It's very hard to find aficionados who are really interested in the old style that is nowhere near as flashy as what Cortez may have to offer, for instance. Who still learns from people like José Galván or even Eugenia de los Reyes (a queen of palmas who unfortunately doesn't perform any more)? Who has ever heard of accompanying guitarists like Manuel Parejo? I'm the last to knock progressive flamenco, but most of its flashy high-tech sound and looks (mega-concert lighting, 1/2-naked costumes, super perfectly sync taconeos etc.) have an increasing tendency to smother the duende, which is what flamenco has always really been about and still can and should be in modern style: in my opinion Israel Galván is today's best example of that.

[Black Sheep]

Payul... you mentioned Flametal!... I love the way the guy who fronts them claims to do weddings as well... Imaging walking down the isle to that stuff!

[Payul]

LOL!

If you had no sweaty hands and shacky feets, you will get them than!

[ex_caeruleus]

Heh, my GF is a traditional belly dancer and I'd downloaded a bunch of vids for her this week and we had a similar conversation to the issue of traditional v. fusion. And I think my feelings are the same about this issue regardless of the art-form or genre.



Personally, I can see two sides, to the puro v. fusion styles:

Flamenco Puro follows a fairly strict structure. For bailaores, cantaores and tocaores to all coexist and be able to work together well, especially spontaneously, it must follow this structure.
So the challenge of mastery - and the challenge to artistry - is to master the style and form(s), to work within this structure and yet still create something new and unique.
This is not a challenge that everyone can enjoy.

It bears mention that the strictures of style and form allow for improvisation and unique moments of living art.
Observe that unacquainted artists can work together (e.g. in juergas) and from within the confines of form, artists attain freedom from choreography and pre-arrangement.

Honestly, if you're not born to the culture, I think this level of discipline requires a special sort of personality - some combination of obsessive, compulsive and fanatic.
We could even compare some Flamenco converts to religious converts; converts are often the most fanatical.
- This could indeed explain some of the vehemence we observe when proponents of Flamenco puro criticise fusion.
Then again, perhaps it requires a narrow or bloody-mindedness to confine one's focus quite so intently; and therein lays a hazard of that narrow-mindedness existing everywhere the traditionalist focuses.





Flamenco Fusion can, and often seems to, reject the tyranny of structure or form. I can imagine all kinds of reasons for this.


At present, I see three kinds of Flamenco fusion:

1. We have Flamenco into which other traditions are imported or injected.
There are people with traditional training or backgrounds who may feel too confined by structures and forms and reject them in whole or in part. It's simply too confining for whatever it may be that they wish to express.


2. There is the type where Flamenco is infused into another tradition or style.
There are those who, having a solid base in some tradition or other, fall in love with other things and feel compelled to add them to their own art form, they may feel their art (form) enriched, while a traditionalist may view it as soiled.


3. There is Flamenco-esque music that adopts a few sounds or progressions into a music that really has no clear form of style of its own.
There are people who embrace new things into their repertoires, but never invest themselves into these things.
They view forms and styles as a kind of smorgasbord or buffet, picking and choosing snack-sized bits of anything they find tasty. They see ideas and want to run with them wherever they may go and never really invest the time, effort, or soul that would change it from a tasty snack into a meal of substance.
Traditionalists may see them as dilatants; non-traditionalists may see them as visionaries.
Personally, I see it as a type of artistic ADHD. The fault of this type is that it lacks greater understanding and is prone to being superficial, and lacking the beauty of mastery. The worst kind is the musician who doesn’t play any instrument at all but strings samples together on their software to build something cool as opposed to composing and arranging a piece.
However, an infinite number of monkies at an infinite number of typewriters is allegedly bound to type up one of Shakespeare's works from time to time, and sometimes these monkey-musicians get lucky too and create some kick-@$$ grooves.




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IMHO, it doesn't matter whether you're a Flamenco, a (belly) dancer or martial artist. If you're going to embark on a fusion and you want yourself and your art to be respectable (indeed if you want it to be art), you need a solid base from somewhere and you need to either treat the components of foreign styles or forms with respect or be honest and say it's merely an influence you've incorporated.
Otherwise, these "fusion" artists stand the risk of looking poor at everything they do, or even simply being wankers.


For the traditionalist, it's good to keep an open mind and try to appreciate all styles (I was taught to try to appreciate everything, first, before making a decision to reject or embrace, a good life lesson in general I feel), but you don't have to respect the fusion artist or the artist's art any more than he or she respects the forms or styles from which she or he borrows.


Again, these are just my meditations on the subject. And I have ADHD, so my brain is always suspect.

Ex abundancia cordis, os loquitor,

Exitao

[Frontera]

Interesting how this subject always gets a big response. It is wonderful to see it discussed in this forum where civility and respect rule. A big thanks to Caesar and Payul for this.

I don't care or have time for modern flamenco, but avoiding it is easy. My personal preference in flamenco should in no way be forced on anyone else. I have followed flamenco forums for the last 7 years and watched battles over this issue that were unnecessary. I have watched the same people that use to think Paco de Lucia was the only and final real super flamenco guitarist, grow older and their opinions changed. Their hatred for cante changed to appreciation. Their insults about other great guitarist changed to admiration. I remember insults about Juan Serrano, Mario Escudero, Melchor de Marchena, and Diego del Gastor. Old Diego was bashed because of a disparaging remark made by Paco de Lucia and if Paco said it, it had to be right.

Fusion of other styles into flamenco is basically a commercial thing IMO. It appeals to more listeners than the traditional. Audiences seem to enjoy big flamboyant shows with several guitarist, rhythm instruments, electric basses, dancers in fancy dress, and singers with more Latin styling than flamenco. To pull off these shows requires intense choreographing and rehearsal. To me this is entertaining, but it doesn't recharge my flamenco batteries. For me it is an illusion not the real thing ... but remember that is my opinion and to some it is the only flamenco. The gypsy family gathered around a table in a private house in a pueblo in Spain and an old man playing the guitar while different friends take turns singing and dancing dressed in everyday attire, just doesn't appeal to the majority. To me this is the real flamenco spontaneous and improvised and all about expression and having fun. To others listening to an old woman wail out a siguiriyas is torture and they avoid it.

The good news is there are 3 major flamenco forums on the internet and one can choose to participate in all or none. Facebook offers connection with flamenco friends with similar taste. More personal info can be shared there.

I am starting a new post posing an interesting question and I am interested in your responses. Thanks again to Caesar for this forum where flamenco in general can be discussed in a civil manner.