[Black Sheep]

I bought a book called 'Songs of the Outcasts'... it's a study of the origins and gives a great understanding of the differences in the various Flamenco palos. It comes with a CD to illustrate the words it contains.

What struck me was the beauty of the songs on the CD. These were simple songs... One in particular, an Alegrias by Chano Lobrato and Luis Moneo is delightful. It bounces with joy as an alegrias should. It sounds like it was recorded in a cafe... bottle of wine on the table, grapevine wall paper etc.

Other tracks on the CD were just as simple, and emotional in their own way... introspective Soleas, sad and mournful Siguiriyas and so on...

And it struck me that when I listen to Vicente Amego, Tomitito, Duquende and yes... even Paco, I can hear the compas, I can hear the key and I can hear the signature 'licks' that contribute to the palo... but the emotion is gone. The original reason for the songs existence has gone.

See what Eric Clapton did to the song Crossroads. His version is great. don't get me wrong, but it's not 'Blues' any more.

Have we lost Flamenco then in the same way. I saw a video of Moratito's son playing with 6 people clapping... Are we drowning out the origins of the music is showy, flashy, virtuoso performances... Or should we remember revisit the table with a bottle of red and the grapevine wallpaper and play the Spanish 'Blues' the way it was originally played...

Over to you... what do you think?

[Frontera]

For me, yes, but as with any music it evolves with time and the newer generations have their ideas. The old school gypsy flamenco is all that interest me. It sounds simple, but performing it isn't so easy as it is usually improvisational and unless one has grown up with it, staying on compas, and expressing feeling can take a lot of years.

Have we lost flamenco is a subject for heated debate and a matter of opinion. It all depends on ones definition of flamenco. I think the new stuff is flamenco but void of expression as most performers no longer experience the suffering and joys that the developers of flamenco experienced. It is a different time and world.

One thing missing in modern flamenco IMO is the distinct melodies in the old. The Alegrias is a great example.

[deteresa]

wow..okay..
No, we have not lost Flamenco.
But Flamenco has changed.

Flamenco has gone from a folk art to a commercial art and a folk art.

The original function of Flamenco music in Andalusian society, as it is today, was for people to put their everyday lives into song. The thing about people's everyday lives, especially for many gypsies, and especially under Franco, was that a lot of the time they were &%$#@ depressing. Now, Andalusians being a very social bunch who love a good party, Bulerias and Tangos have always been very popular. But the flip side, which is not nearly as common anymore, is the "Ronda de Martinetes" or the "Ronda de Tonas", or just one guy singing Seguiriyas with or withour guitar. This is where people expressed, to a group of close friends and family, their greatest pain and sorrow. Not only of themselves but of their people. Now the question becomes, who the %$@#, besides themselves and their people, would want to listen to that on a record? Not many, except a very small handful of aficionados, such as ourselves, in Spain and in other countries.
After Franco came down, is when Flamenco began the transition from folk art to commercial art. American music hit Spain with full force, including rock stars. And who wouldn't want to be a rock star? Lots of people all over the world do. But you're not going to become a rock star singing "introspective" or "mournful" songs with solo guitar accompaniment. If you come from a Flamenco background, you're going to try to do it singing the festive songs: Bulerias, Tangos, and Rumba. And that's what people did, starting with Camaron. Creating fusions between Flamenco and other types of music. It's just that Bulerias, and even moreso, Tangos lend themselves a lot better to fusions with western music than Soleares do.

The upshot?
The greatest Flamenco guitarist of the 20th century puts out an album solely composed of Bulerias, Tangos, and Rumbas, largely influenced by jazz.
People absolutely do sit around in Cafes with wine (although more likely Cruzcampo...) and sing and play the guitar in Spain. People do break out into spontaneous Flamenco while walking down the street. The only real difference, besides modern harmony, is that now it is much more likely to be Bulerias than any other palo. In order to sing a great Seguiriyas or Solea, you honestly do have to be truly moved, and you have to be drawing on 100% real solitude or depression. These styles are not easy to sing. Bulerias and Tangos are just a lot more fun when you are out with friends in a modern, Democratic country.

That does not mean that people have lost respect for the Jondo forms or for the old great masters. For serious Flamencos, that is still the fountain from which all inspiration flows. In fact I would argue that really antique styles such as the Caña, Polo, and Serranas are making a real comeback. And most guitarists and singers, although they may spend more time on the festive palos, are still well versed in everything from Cantiñas to Tarantas, and use these palos in thier live shows.

The important thing is that Flamenco is still a very vibrant and essential part of life for people in Andalusia. If Flamenco was the same as it was 40 years ago, it would be a museum piece right now. It would be dead.

And that's what I have to say about Flamenco today.

And they don't have much wall paper, they have Azulejos which are beautifully hand painted tiles that go up about 4 or 5 feet high on the walls of almost every Cafe and Bar.

[Black Sheep]

I studied with several photographers years ago... there were two different schools of thought. One said learn the craft and the art will follow and the other said forget how you take the image, it is all to do with what the image says...

As a student of Flamenco I wonder if I should go right back to the beginning and look at theses simple pure forms (with wonderful silences in them)... should I look here first, or try and pick up the palos from the modern interpretation.

It could be a 50/50 argument...

And 'detercsa' the tiles sound brilliant. I intend to travel to Spain, probably early next year to sit in those cafes and soak up the atmosphere...

[Aurelio]

Black Sheep, Frontera and I have closely similar views on the state of flamenco today. My position has been, for quite some time now, that the term "flamenco" should be reserved for the cante-centered music that remained relatively stable from the late 1800s into the late 1980s (and in some cases, beyond--see Chocolate and La Fernanda on Saura's Flamenco DVD)--the music (siguiriyas, tientos) that one can hear sung by Manuel Torres (with Habichuela) on 1909 recordings, and the same essential songs by El Cabrero or Jose de la Tomasa (with Paco del Gastor) at the end of the 1980s.

The history and custom with the arts has been to name periods of relatively slow change or stasis with names that most everyone acknowledges--Baroque, Classic, Hudson River School, Hellenistic, etc. Then come periods of rapid change and rapid "evolution"--the old forms fade away or become rare, new forms appear--and then there is a new period of stasis or slow change, with its new name--it's no longer called Baroque or The Blues or whatever. This should be the case with flamenco, IMHO; the name should be reserved for the "traditional" music that you discuss in your post, and the proponents and enthusiasts for the New Music(s) should come up with a New Name or names.

If there are CDs of "real flamenco" that you really like, I'd be happy to exchange titles with you--things that I've found that have pleased me over the years. I'm always interested in learning about recordings that I may have missed.

aurelio

[Payul]

In my oppinion, we have not lost flamenco, but got back flamenco.
The flamenco was nearly dead.
Very unpopulair in the 80ties, the Punk, Ska, New wave music etc. was very populair under the spanish youth. Flamenco was for the old people.
The more modern flamenco might have saved the flamenco, the internet too, flamenco is probably bigger outside Spain than inside Spain. Ofcourse it cannot be all we wish for, but it culuminates, and that is the most importand thing...I think.....

Payul

[MarcChrys]

I 'resonate' with a lot of what you're saying. I came into flamenco through a love of the dark mysterious sounds of flamenco guitar that intrigued me and seemed to mirror my own emotions. So far it's been a wonderful adventure, but the more I get 'into' flamenco the more I appreciate its history and culture - the songs, the dances, and their connections to ordinary people's lives. I can't speak for whether flamenco is 'lost', 'still there & never went away', 'being resdicovered' or 'reformulated' in Spain, but, as someone from another country, I feel there is a danger that we 'outsiders' often learn flamenco's technical aspects (a bit like doing a night class in flower arranging!) - e.g. over-focusing on guitar technique/virtuosity - rather than entering into the mind-set
(emotion-set, soul-set?) of flamenco. Whether the style of flamenco has changed (e.g. Nueva Flamenco) is perhaps not the most important question (musical forms always change, metamorphose, mix - and that's healthy), it's whether the heart still remains - I'm confident that, for many of us non-Andalusian aficionados, our flamenco hearts beat strongly.

[deteresa]

All I can say is: Go to Andalucia!
Sevilla, Jerez, Granada, wherever. Just not Madrid.
I agree with what many of you have said. A lot of people's records that come out, especially solo guitarists, are not focusing so much on the deeper palos. But you have to understand that this is the commercial end of the art, where they are trying to sell records, make money, win Grammies etc.
When I was in Spain last month, I heard people singing everything, Bulerias, Seguiriyas, Soleares, Tarantas, you name it. I got to accompany singers singing these styles, and when they want to sing a Solea or a Seguiriya, because it's totally up to the singer, you [i]have[i] to get back to basics. You can play whatever fancy falsetas you want to but during the letras, you have to go back to those same old 4 or 5 chords.
The thing about these styles is, they're VERY hard to sing. Just because they have been around Flamenco since the day they were born, doesn't mean they can pull off a great Seguiriya any time of day.
Anyhow, I know most of us are in agreement with our appreciation of the old style of cante. It's just easy to get jaded listening to records that come out these days. But you have to realize that REAL Flamenco is VERY much alive in Spain.
And no offense but it's absurd to say that Flamenco is bigger outside of Spain. I don't know about other countries but in the US I'd say the audience is less than 1/10th what it is in Spain.

[deteresa]

The beautiful thing is that old men in Andalucia spend many an afternoon at the bar debating THIS VERY THING.

[Aurelio]

Andy, Estela Zatania is concerned that the globalization of flamenco, and its subsequent "evolution" to adapt to the perceived tastes of a huge and growing public of not-so-informed listeners, is causing flamenco to decay in Spain. Traditional artists, especially singers of the real cante, are leaving the field as their opportunity to work is diminished. Maybe that's why the old-timers continue to discuss this topic!

aurelio