[Aurelio]

A strong "¡Amen, hermano!" to Marvin Steel for his comments about Diego and about what constitutes great flamenco guitar. See Marvin's post under "Forum Suggestions--Round 1", but any ongoing discussion should continue here.

aurelio

[Frontera]

I also agree with Marvin about not becoming a "robot", however I prefer the word "parrot". I started sounding more flamenco when I quit trying to parrot a composition. Learn rhythm patterns of your favorite players first and then their falsetas. Then experiment on making changes that come to mind but still stay in compas.

I do not think having separate categories on this forum for modern and traditional or Moron or Jerez flamenco would be a constructive thing. The internet already has special forums for such and leaving this place as a general flamenco forum that observes good manners is best.

Federico makes a good point that many do not consider Sevillanas or Rumba flamenco. There are some that take it even further to say Guajiras and a bunch more are also not flamenco. A small minority consider only Solea, Siguiriyas, Bulerias, and Alegrias flamenco. Everything else is a redheaded, freckled faced step child.

I remember back in the early 70's all the debates about Manitas de Plata and Carlos Montoya that couldn't seem to observe the boundaries of compas. Technique sold records for them not compas. I am sure either player could play in compas if they chose, but they chose not to discipline themselves. They are still considered flamenco by many, but I never cared for either after buying one of their LP's and finding they chose to defy the most defining part of flamenco ... it's compas.

[Estanislao]

I come real alte to this one.

But I am going to add my two-cents worth here. It seems to me that what happened is that a number of Flamenco Guitarists decided to pull a Segovia. That is, to make Flamenco guitar an acceptable music for the
upper-crust concert crowd, the folks with plenty of money to spend regularly on live performances. That meant that Flamenco guitar music had to lose its spontenaity and become a semi-stuffy discipline. Juan Martin, who sought and got a Doctorate in music, Escuderos, and even Sabicas, among others, fell into that siren song. And somehow it has become almost gospel that everybody has to follow the rigid discipline or they are not "Flamenco" guitarists.

So we end up with arguments about whether folks like Manitas de Plata and players like him are really genuine Flamenco artists or not. Manitas simply represents one aspect of the art, the free wheeling cantina and Gypsy styles which many would like to forget in their drive for credibility in certain circles. I personally think all that emphasis on fromality in forms is part of what drives geniuses like Paco De Lucia and Rayito to seek out fusion music for their artistic expression. Though I doubt they'll ever admit it. Manitas doesn't give a damn what the rest think since he's been able to laugh all the way to the bank with his album sales.

Bye the way, I did stumble across a recent video of Manitas accompanying a Cantaor. The Cantaor was Improvising, but Manitas did seem to be staying on compas quite well, certainly better than most of the songs he did on the album Juergas. So I guess he can when he wants to.

[gato]

I don't think that we have lost anything. Perhaps there are performers not making the music that some of us prefer, or accept as flamenco, but this is bound to be the case in any form of music in the present day world. The flamenco is in a state of evolution, and we cannot expect to live in the past, can we?

Perhaps new ideas about tradition, and traditional form will return, though no one can say, and that is what I find exciting about this era. It's happening now, and I think that it is healthy for the flamenco to embrace the modern world. It gives us a perspective about the things we apreciate when we think about the flamenco.

What if the new flamenco never existed, would the traditional music be here in such a world? I don't think so. I think it's a part of the era that we live in. And it serves the flamenco community in such a way that it thrives, and then, in my opinion, so does the traditional aspect. Cd's are availble, money is being made, the industry is healthy, so flamenco will survive. And, traditional flamenco will be performed, made and sold. That economic factor does weigh in to the record industry. Both are needed without question. And I think one cannot exist without the other.
Gary

EDIT: Now as for the culture, my post does not answer the question, mainly as I concerned my self with the musical form!

[ssante]

We have not lost anything. Flamenco is alive and well both Traditional and Modern. All art changes with the times and perceptions. The digital age has expedited the global experience and Flamenco will reflect these changes as all Art does.

[studiotrece]

no ofcourse we have not lost flamenco. Here in Spain falmenco is still big and when i who work with flamenco look over europe i see that alot of people still have a passion for flamenco. In Sweden every class given at any level in flamenco is field up, there is continuasly new schools and classes of flamenco. It is not gone yet, we just have to find another way to reach our audience.just creating an festival somewere and thinking that will be enough will not do it.
Take a look at studiotrece producciones on faebook to see who we work with keeping flamenco alive.

[flamencodpv]

Flamenco at its base is cante. Keep that alive, and flamenco, by definition, will live.

All the experimentation out there, good or bad, brings attention to flamenco, which attracts new flamencos. Of these new recruits, some will develop a taste for a more pure, gypsy style and will pass it on. These are usually the ones who recognize cante as the heart of flamenco, the ones who learn or at least familiarize themselves with cante, and who keep it alive. Guitar and baile entice the masses, and they create a new fan base for cante over time.

I'd be surprised if this cycle ever stopped. I'm doing all I can to keep it going!

Jason