[Stoney]

I just found this vid on youtube and it really makes me want to restate my original opinion.

YouTube - Juan Serrano "Bulerias en La menor"

I realize this is Bulerias in La menor (A min) and therefore not so common but where is the pulse? Sure it counts as 12 beats but there seem to be absolutely no accents at all.

Bulerias can be counted in 5s. (2 long accents and 3 short accents)

I don't mean to stand on a soap-box, I am just saying that the good majority of Flamenco players that I know all seem to agree, the 3 players you should absolutely avoid emulating (from Worst to almost acceptable) are Manitas de Plata, Juan Serrano and Carlos Montoya.

I poured over the Serrano books and for the price and the time invested got very little for my money.

That said, I did find a good Zambra Mora lesson on youtube by Serrano. And I like his Rumba "Tempestad." Still, I generally avoid him like the plague.

YouTube - Learn Arabian Flamenco Style "Zambra" | By Juan Serrano

Stoney

[johnguitar]

I am the student of one of Juan Serrano's students from back in the 1960's. I don't know Juan personally but my teacher has a really great attitude (I get the feeling that it is also Juan's) about all of Flamenco in that as he states, "there is no one way to do anything, whatever works for you". That is in reference to rasgueado., tremolo, etc.....techniques in general but not to "compas". I find the 5 finger starting on "I" a pain in the___ but once you get it - it works fine as do a million other forms in the same time span or beats. If it works for you then it works. I also do 5 & 6 note tremolos and start anywhere I want as long as it sounds good. I guess I am pretty much the opposite of everyone else as I start all my picado on "M" as I do also usually my 5 note tremolo. I mean Juan created this 5 stroke rasgueado starting on "I" because it was right for him. I believe flamenco is all about finding your own voice within the basic discipline and rhythmic structures. A lot like American "Jazz".

[Stoney]

Hey, I couldn't agree more with that philosophy, if it works and it sounds good, do it. However, that may or may not work depending on if you plan to be a soloist or if you plan to get into playing with other guitarists.

If your style won't blend with other players then you have a problem. If you played blues and your tunes all worked out to 13 bars then you will have a problem when you jam because everybody else plays 12 bar blues.

The vid of Juan Serrano IMHO is just a convoluted mess. Tremelo in a Bulerias? I've only seen that once before in a very progressive piece by Paco de Lucia. Again, where are the accents in the Juan Serrano piece?

Stoney

[PlazaAlta]

Let's not get caught by counting the beats - the great thing about flamenco is its never-ending flexibility... flamenco is a sponge (arab+jewish+spanish+southamerican... musics) and talking about it as pure or hyper-structured music is not realistic...

The next stage in evolution may be that beautiful PDL's piece titled "Palenque"... who knows... I see flamenco as Jazz... started collecting cotton, ended up in Schools of Music... In flamenco was blacksmiths & olive pickers, and now you have Gerardo Nunez or Vicente Amigo...

I know, being Spaniard, so many aficionados being so passionate about "pure" forms.. but in reality there is not such a thing.... a pure form is nothing but pulling the breaks at one precise moment in time... evolution does not stop

[Stoney]

Originally Posted by PlazaAlta

Let's not get caught by counting the beats

I'm not too sure what that means. Counting the beats is imperative in order to play correct compas. Is there any dispute on that issue? There are other issues such as creating the right "Aire" for a specific Palo but without compas it's just New Age noodling.

Other things are valid, they just aren't Flamenco. Can you twist, warp, push and pull the compas one way or another to create tension? Of course. But if you are a player who is learning and you aren't paying any attention to the compas, you're not likely to go very far in Flamenco.

Stoney

[at_leo_87]

compas is essential, man.

[Frontera]

Originally Posted by Stoney

I realize this is Bulerias in La menor (A min) and therefore not so common but where is the pulse? Sure it counts as 12 beats but there seem to be absolutely no accents at all.

Bulerias can be counted in 5s. (2 long accents and 3 short accents)

I don't mean to stand on a soap-box, I am just saying that the good majority of Flamenco players that I know all seem to agree, the 3 players you should absolutely avoid emulating (from Worst to almost acceptable) are Manitas de Plata, Juan Serrano and Carlos Montoya.

Stoney, The idea of this thread was so members would give reasons why they participate on flamenco forums. Somehow you never directly gave us your reasons, but by starting a bashing of Juan Serrano you are telling me in an indirect way your reasons are to stir up foolish debate.

If you cannot follow the compas in Serranos Am bulerias, then that just exposes your lack of flamenco knowledge. Nothing wrong with tremolo in a Bulerias as long as it works with the melody and stays in compas. Serranos piece is a beautiful melodious bulerias. Nothing wrong with the accenting whatsoever. To place him among player that played out of compas is just wrong and I hope such utter nonsense isn't believed or repeated by the many beginners that frequent this forum. Also an Am bulerias is not that uncommon. I sometimes start in Am and work into A maj then do another 3 or 4 falsetas in Am and then finish in A maj. Using the term pulse to evaluate flamenco is incorrect IMO. Compas says it all.

If you don't like Serrano then you don't have to listen or play his pieces, but to try and discourage others is wrong. I am not a Serrano fan, but I respect him as one of the great master flamenco guitar teachers and performers. Also misdirecting the theme of a thread is disrespectful.

[PlazaAlta]

Apologies but the sarcasm obviously didn't come across nicely (entirely my fault and my limitations of expressing feelings in a written language). I was only exagerating, I know the vital importance of compas. All I was trying to say is that flamenco rules (being compas or whatever else) are there to be twisted, experimented with or simply broken. This doesn't translate into ignoring the importance of compas.

It is essential to get a deep knowledge of the traditional forms before attempting to come up with new forms. However, I've heard great guitarists playing out of compas (e.g. Sabicas or Carlos Montoya) which, of course, they could afford but it would still sound profoundly flamenco.

Personally speaking I do not believe in "pure" flamenco... again (and not being sarcastic this time) purity is only a snapshot at a particular point in time... the master of flamenco guitar, PDL, was considered too wild and not pure in his beginning, now, everybody imitates him and consider him the essence of flamenco guitar... this is only an example: the same happened with Camaron, etc.

[Aurelio]

Plaza Alta's assertion that flamenco, like other musics, other arts, other just about everything, is constantly evolving and being transformed into something new, is totally correct. However, the problem arises in keeping track of definitions so that people can communicate effectively about a subject, with some confidence that they will understand one another. What usually happens is that any art form or movement reaches a point where it has changed so much that its old name is dropped and it is given a new name. Thus, in classical music, we have Baroque, "Classical", Romantic, etc. In art there are a host of Schools, movements, trends. Without such changes in nomenclature, we could still be calling the aleatoric or twelve-tone musics of the Twentieth century "Baroque", and saying that it was just evolution at work.

I've made the point before that, for about a century or more, flamenco was cante, sometimes a palo seco, sometimes accompanied by guitar, sometimes by dance. No castanets, no cajon, no bass, no saxophone or tuba. A siguiriya by Manuel Torres from 1909 sounds like a siguiriya by Jose de la Tomasa sung in 1989--a voice, a guitar, some palmas and jaleos. This is the sort of music that should have the word "flamenco" reserved for it, because it did remain relatively stable for a long, long time in artistic terms. Once we get away from the primacy of cante, with simple guitar accompaniment, we are getting farther away from the idea of flamenco, and entering other worlds of music. These may be wonderful worlds of wonderful music, and they deserve names of their own, rather than continuing to cling to the term "flamenco". New music requires new names.

Aurelio

[Stoney]

I guess if you are a senior member you get to set the rules? So be it. I will obey the theme of the thread from here out and if there are any points that I feel deserve discussion I'll just ignore them regardless of merit. Thanks for your imput.

I just wonder, you wouldn't maybe come from a land where they preach FREEDOM all the while denying it to those that disagree with them? Just wondering.

Stoney

PS. I can count the 12 beats, thank you very much. I just think it sucks. Pulse - synomymous with accent of which there are NONE in that bulerias. Also, give us 3 examples of Tremelo in any bulerias other than the Paco de Lucia one I mentioned and the Juan Serrano. If you are going to DEBATE you should back up your words with FACT not hot air.

In closing, as I said earlier, ALL the Flamencos I know will tell you to avoid imitating or learning from Serrano. Good advice.